Fact or Fiction

[Stamina1914]

Are the Zacpa rums made from molasses or from sugar can juice? Thanks.

[Michael]

The MOR database indicates that they are made from sugar cane syrup, not molasses or sugar cane juice.

[Count Silvio]

Theyre made from sugar cane honey as it says on the bottle (http://www.refinedvices.com/Ron-Zacapa-Centenario-23)(click link for review and images).

[Michael]

Isn't sugar cane honey another name for sugar cane syrup Count?

[Rum Runner]

Right on Michael and Count.

Check out this link (http://www.ronesdeguatemala.com/eng/index.php) to the producer. Click on "The magic of rum". Then click on "Processes". Read the lengthy description of how they process the cane juice. Then draw your own conclusion.

Interestingly, there is another rum produced by this same company bearing the legally obtained cigar brand name Montecristo. Here is the link (http://www.montecristorum.com/site.php) to their page.

They claim they are selling an "Agricultural Rum" distilled from fresh cane juice.

I would disagree with that assertion.

[Bill]

Interestingly, there is another rum produced by this same company bearing the legally obtained cigar brand name Montecristo. They claim they are selling an "Agricultural Rum" distilled from fresh cane juice.

I would disagree with that assertion.

I wouldn't. Montecristo is most assuredly a cane juice rum, and a superb one at that. The aroma presents a lovely citrus/caney/reedy over a background of vanilla/caramel. The taste is consistent and develops increasing cinnamon and hot clove, and finishes explosively, warm and peppery.

I'd be tempted to rate this highly underrated cane juice rum close to Barbancourt, but less complex - really memorable. It's cane juice heritage is hard to miss.

BTW I did read the Zacapa "process" section which - after giving a general overview of sugar production ends with:

"Rums are prepared by fermenting the residual liquid molasses... the molasses containes about 5% sugar. Guatemalan rums are produced from raw juices extracted from sugar cane. These have a sugar concentration of around 70 to 78% after evaporating the water present in cane juice".

A cane juice syrup.

[Michael]

Thanks for the link Rum Runner to the producer's description of their rum production processes. The end of that rather non-linear account indicates that:

"Guatemalan rums are produced from raw juices extracted from sugar cane. These have a sugar concentration of around 70%-78% after evaporating the water present in the cane juice", i.e. turning the juice into sugar cane syrup/honey.

That is to say that you are correct Rum Runner. glass.gif

[Rum Runner]

Fair enough Bill.

Are you assured that this is a fresh cane juice rum from your own experience in tasting such? Or by the website proclamations?...Or both?

Surely you have noted the process involved of the the sugar cane by the producer. Is it your belief that they are holding truly fresh cane juice for the production of this (Montecristo) rum?

[Michael]

...
It's cane juice heritage is hard to miss.

Except that Industrias Licoreras de Guatemala specifies that all "Guatemalan rums" are made as described, from sugar cane syrup. One imagines that no exception is made for Montecristo.

Coincidentally we recently got a set of the excellent Flare glasses and used the set of five (special thanks to AdmiralJ) to taste all of the dark rums we have from Industrias Licoreras last night. Arranged by age they consisted of:

Ron Zacapa Commemorativo 23 Aсos

Ron Botran Solera 1893

Ron Zacapa Commemorativo 15 Aсos

Zaya (Guatemala, of course)

Montecristo

The Ron Botran Solera 1893 seemed to combine elements of the Commemorativo 15 Aсos and the Montecristo, albeit with additional complexity and interest. Montecristo seemed more closely related to the Ron Botran rum than to the others. I'm unfamiliar with the other rums from Casa Botran and consequently can't make any general comparisons to that line.

[Bill]

It is important to note that Montecristo does not appear on the Industrias Licoreras website (altho Zacapa, Botran, Venado Sello and others do). Montecristo sports it's own website which states:

"Montecristo Rum is “agricultural rum” made from all natural, hand-harvested, pure sugarcane juice, not molasses. Montecristo Rum is a premium spirit obtained by distilling fermented sugarcane juice... Only the World's finest distillers masterfully blend and barrel age rum with pure sugarcane juice. This is the case with all Montecristo premium rums... When rum is obtained by distilling the fermented wash of sugarcane juice it is known as “rum agricole.” This process is rare and costly, reserved for limited production rums due to the multiple demands for sugarcane juice."

As to your questions RR, yes, yes and yes. I have tasted a goodly number of cane juice rums, including Barbancourt, Clement, Saint James and others. The cane is absolutely there. I think Montecristo is tremendously underrated, and stands side by side with Barbancourt and my favorite Clement, the VSOP.

[Rum Runner]

A cane juice syrup.


I respectfully remain that Montecristo Rum is not a true "Agricultural Rum".

[Michael]

It is important to note that Montecristo does not appear on the Industrias Licoreras website (altho Zacapa, Botran, Venado Sello and others do) ...


No offense intended Bill, but you're wrong again. Click on "Spirits, Rum in Bulk and Maquila" and then on "Maquila (Private Label)" and you will find the two Montecristo rums pictured by themselves.

[rumdog007]

It is important to note that Montecristo does not appear on the Industrias Licoreras website (altho Zacapa, Botran, Venado Sello and others do). Montecristo sports it's own website which states:



As to your questions RR, yes, yes and yes. I have tasted a goodly number of cane juice rums, including Barbancourt, Clement, Saint James and others. The cane is absolutely there. I think Montecristo is tremendously underrated, and stands side by side with Barbancourt and my favorite Clement, the VSOP.

If I had to wager, I'd say that the company's statement is correct. I second Bill on the flavor of this wonderful rum. My observation is purely from its taste, though. It's nothing like the Botran products (which I greatly admire) and does rival the flavor profile of Barbancourt 5 Star (also, noted by Bill). The price for this rum has fallen in some stores around here. I do not believe that it was as big seller as plannned.

[Michael]

...
A cane juice syrup.

Usually referred to as sugar cane syrup or honey (sugar cane juice with the water cooked off or evaporated).

[rumdog007]

Montecristo, on their website, does make the cane juice claim, though. My rep in Guatemala City can check into this for me. Some of our largest accounts are sugar companies, cane producers, and traders. I did re-read and see your reason for the syrup production and not juice assertation.

[Michael]

Perhaps the description in the MOR database might be informative:

http://www.ministryofrum.com/producerdetails.php?t=126

which states in part:

"From the sugar mills in the lower part of the country, molasses and sugar cane syrup is trucked to the mountainside distillery where it is fermented and distilled. The two raw materials are used to make different quality rums, the better products such as the Zacapa rums and some of the private labels distilled here are distilled from fermented sugar cane syrup, while the other rums and distilled products are made from molasses.

When distilling fermented sugar cane syrup the condensate is collected at about 92% abv, somewhat lower than the distillation proof when fermented molasses is the raw material. The main difference is that the molasses has a higher sulfur content and must be distilled to a higher proof in order to make a more palatable distillate. The sugar cane syrup is not a byproduct of the sugar making process but rather a concentrated syrup or sugar cane honey collected from the sugar making process after the juice has been heated and some of the solids have been precipitated but before crystalline sugar has been removed from the sweet slurry.

Because this syrup has a high sugar content it is relatively stable and can be stored for several months at the cooler elevation of the distillery before it is turned into rum. ..."

If memory serves, sugar cane juice is extracted fresh and used immediately, lest it spoil. It appears that Industrias Licoreras is too far from the fields (trucking required) to use sugar cane juice.

[Matusalem]

I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure Montecristo rum is Carlito Fuente's baby. Like Zaya was, it's private labeled/bottled product from IdLG.

I don't think it's 'agricole' though and the descriptions that place the process somewhere between fresh pressed cane juice and molasses is what I taste. I thought we pretty much agreed Barbancourt is somewhere in between too.

[rumdog007]

Good point, Michael. As I have driven the, er, roads in Guatemala many times. But, they do truck sugar cane juice in 5000 gallon tank trucks for different products. You are correct that the clock is ticking from the onset, so the juice must be used. I don't know if the rum business in Central America is really that nimble. I wonder what the time limit is during the heat conditions during harvest time. Also, supporting your thought, is the considerable risk if a truck breaks down, etc..

[Michael]

...
I don't think it's 'agricole' though and the descriptions that place the process somewhere between fresh pressed cane juice and molasses is what I taste. I thought we pretty much agreed Barbancourt is somewhere in between too.

Perhaps we can refer anyone who wishes to debate the raw material of Barbancourt to previous threads rather than rehashing the topic. :)

[Count Silvio]

Isn't sugar cane honey another name for sugar cane syrup Count?

Yes it is Michael. I was confused about these two terms when I was doing research for my review (http://www.refinedvices.com/Ron-Zacapa-Centenario-23) and allowed to confuse myself again, forgive me. There are just so many names for everything it is sometimes hard to keep up. :)

[Matusalem]

Perhaps we can refer anyone who wishes to debate the raw material of Barbancourt to previous threads rather than rehashing the topic. :)

http://www.ministryofrum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1341&highlight=barbancourt+agricole&page=3

Barely had time to look around this AM but this thread contains some discussion.

[Edward Hamilton]

Good point, Michael. As I have driven the, er, roads in Guatemala many times. But, they do truck sugar cane juice in 5000 gallon tank trucks for different products. You are correct that the clock is ticking from the onset, so the juice must be used. I don't know if the rum business in Central America is really that nimble. I wonder what the time limit is during the heat conditions during harvest time. Also, supporting your thought, is the considerable risk if a truck breaks down, etc..

Having been to the sugar mill that supplies the Zacapa distillery with their sugar cane honey and molasses, I can tell you with certainty that sugar cane juice is not used in the production of these rums and the tankers are carrying either sugar cane honey, which is stable or molasses which has an even longer shelf life.

Besides the problems of trucking sugar cane juice, if it was going to be used as a raw material at a distillery the distillery would have to be prepared to use it immediately.

For a distiller using sugar cane honey or molasses allows them to schedule production throughout the year where as sugar cane juice doesn't allow year round production.

After having visited more than 40 distilleries, I can state with certainty that only a couple of distilleries outside the French islands use sugar cane juice and no one transports the juice from another location. If a distillery uses fresh sugar cane juice he has a sugar cane mill to crush the cane.

[RobertBurr]

I attended a dinner not long ago here in Coral Gables with Lorena Vasquez, master blender of Zacapa. The distinction I took away from her presentation was that sugar cane honey is extremely thick, compared to most sugar cane syrups. The cane honey product shown to me was darker and more viscous, much more like the thickness of honey, that the sugar cane syrups we use to make ti punch.

To a certain extent, the process of creating this cane honey is unique and different due to it's purpose for making rum, versus other syrups produced for other purposes that must pour easily and mix well with other liquids.

[Count Silvio]

I wonder what Zacapa would taste like if they changed the sugar cane honey to molasses, hmm... At the moment I think it is way too sweet.

[Michael]

Thanks for the clarification Ed and Robert.

[Bill]

No offense intended Bill, but you're wrong again. Click on "Spirits, Rum in Bulk and Maquila" and then on "Maquila (Private Label)" and you will find the two Montecristo rums pictured by themselves.

Don't be so sure. The Licoreras website clearly segregates their own products (Zacapa, Botran, Venado Sello) - which they describe fully and promote in the section entitled "Our Portfolio". Montecristo does NOT appear in their list of their own products.

As you so well observed in hoisting your own petard, they also provide raw materials, neutral alcohol, semi-neutral alcohol, bulk rum to order and other services like bottling and labeling for private labels/special orders to private (outside) specification.

Two bottles of Montecristo appear in that section, apparently as examples of such outside, private production. They are not described in any way and clearly are NOT part of the Licorias portfolio.

In closing, it is well to load your weapon before discharging it... I stand on my observation. I really doubt whether Licoreras would bottle and label such a product if it were not honestly labeled.

[Michael]

It is important to note that Montecristo does not appear on the Industrias Licoreras website (altho Zacapa, Botran, Venado Sello and others do).
...

Montecristo did indeed appear on the website. That is indisputable and you were incorrect. I made no other point in that post.

Enjoy the thread; I'll be reading elsewhere on the MOR site. It seems that the question which began this thread has already been resolved. glass.gif

[Bill]

Michael, you are absolutely right and I thank you for your observation.

The point - which I agree has been well made - is that Montecristo is a privately produced and labeled, distinctively different product that should not be confused with Licoreras' own well known portfolio.

I think we can rest assured that it is a cane juice rum as so labeled. Accordingly it tastes nothing like the Zacapa or Botran rums.

[Michael]

Perhaps these questions are better asked of someone at Industrias Licoreras, but it is difficult to imagine how you are construing "privately produced and labeled" to mean that the factory/distillery suddenly has access to cane-crushing equipment or raw materials other than the sugar cane honey (a sugar-rich version of sugar cane syrup, sugar crystals not removed) or molasses which Ed indicated above are the only ones supplied to the factory by the sugar mill.

It seems more likely that the copy writer for Montecristo misunderstood the raw materials employed by the producer for their fine product.

Let us hope that Montecristo doesn't have to seek other sources of rum, like Zaya before it. cheers.gif

[the NOSE]

I attended a dinner not long ago here in Coral Gables with Lorena Vasquez, master blender of Zacapa. The distinction I took away from her presentation was that sugar cane honey is extremely thick, compared to most sugar cane syrups. The cane honey product shown to me was darker and more viscous, much more like the thickness of honey, that the sugar cane syrups we use to make ti punch.

To a certain extent, the process of creating this cane honey is unique and different due to it's purpose for making rum, versus other syrups produced for other purposes that must pour easily and mix well with other liquids.

Hello Robert,

i met Lorena only some weeks ago here in Berlin and i had the same question. What i understud was, the sugar - honey which they used, is a kind of something in between of sugar syrup and a little bit of caramelezised? sugar cane syrup.

But!!! meanwhile it dosnt taste like the former Ron Zacapa with the same "aging". (on the label)

Kristina

[rumdog007]

Having been to the sugar mill that supplies the Zacapa distillery with their sugar cane honey and molasses, I can tell you with certainty that sugar cane juice is not used in the production of these rums and the tankers are carrying either sugar cane honey, which is stable or molasses which has an even longer shelf life.

Besides the problems of trucking sugar cane juice, if it was going to be used as a raw material at a distillery the distillery would have to be prepared to use it immediately.

For a distiller using sugar cane honey or molasses allows them to schedule production throughout the year where as sugar cane juice doesn't allow year round production.

After having visited more than 40 distilleries, I can state with certainty that only a couple of distilleries outside the French islands use sugar cane juice and no one transports the juice from another location. If a distillery uses fresh sugar cane juice he has a sugar cane mill to crush the cane.

Ed, about 20-30 miles south of Guatemala city, on one of the slender main roads which leads to El Salvador there is a sugar production company which has a main gate right on the side of the road (right side while heading south). There is a 20 foot guard tower, it is fenced and one must give up their passport upon entering the yard as they draw up the weighted barrier. I will consult my rep for the name but, anyway, we were there on a day when what we were told was fresh press (my words, but some term was used to indicate that it was a raw material) was being pumped into the tanker. Now, I could have completely misunderstood, but I don't think so because I later toured (and many times after) and saw the rest of sugar and molasses production and everyone was quite specific. You may know this exact plant. Quite old with mostly wooden stuctures (as opposed to a more modern, steel frame facility also in Guatemala).

Now, this is not to say that any rum from Guatemala is really made from that juice. Your research and logic surely supports this as fact. But, the truck that I saw was definitely not being loaded with anything thick and syrupy. It might have just been going to another processing plant.

My rep told me earlier this year that this season was going to be a boomer. He'll be visiting our clients. He can find out anything about the plant (or anything, at all, about sugar production) which I mentioned so I will ask him if juice is EVER trucked.

That said, conceding that you are correct, wow, Monticristo sure has a great taste and REALLY differentiates itself from other Botran/Zacapa rums. drooling3.gif

[Hank Koestner]

The only thing I can add to this discussion is some comments on taste. Montecristo, to me, is closer in profile to a rum that is made with sugar cane syrup than one that is made from fresh pressed juice.

[rumdog007]

You know, Hank, after having a taste just now and not comparing it to the Zacapas, I agree with you. When I was profiling the taste in my mind, it drifted toward the "agricultural" taste because I kept thinking of the sweet taste of the other Guatemala rum. But, when I do what I should have done from the get-go, that is, taste it again things changed. I still distance it from the Zacapa and find the similarity to the Barbancourt, but really distance it from a true agricole.oops.gif

[Hank Koestner]

I agree. It is a distance from the Zacapas, closer to Babancourt. Quite a bit different from Botran, also. Salut!gzzg

[Rum Runner]

The Licoreras website clearly segregates their own products (Zacapa, Botran, Venado Sello) - which they describe fully and promote in the section entitled "Our Portfolio". Montecristo does NOT appear in their list of their own products. I really doubt whether Licoreras would bottle and label such a product if it were not honestly labeled.

I agree that this in an important distinction, but perhaps for a different reason than you Bill. The Licores website does show the Montecristo bottle under "Maquillas" so one presumes that they are bottling and labeling it. However, it is not directly stated as fact. Since they deal in bulk rum, there remains the possibility that it is being shipped in bulk and bottled and labeled elsewhere, unless someone at Licores would be willing to confirm that such is not the case.

I think we can rest assured that it is a cane juice rum as so labeled.

The labels I have seen make no statement as to what sugar cane byproduct Montecristo is made from. Or for that matter where it is bottled. Perhaps you have labels that show different?

The only reference to Montecristo being made from fresh cane juice in on their (Montecristo's) website and in their press releases. All of which is a recent marketing tact it seems to me. They did not start out from the get go marketing it as an "Agricole" rum.

[RobertBurr]

I was told by company a representative that they recent secured their supply of rum from Licores for 14 more years.